5th December 2025

This person pushes tenuous arguments way beyond reasonable limits. Curt, rude and an ugly way to debate. Disrespect abound.

We have our opinions. Some have severe reservations about abortions at any stage of pregnancy. Some feel that contraception is wrong. We may have a sentimental attachment to the idea that life should be preserved wherever life spawns. Human life that is. Many anti-abortionists pay little regard to the prospects of other animals.

I will not make any arguments that support or decries the wilful termination of a pregnancy. What I will do is highlight the issues that emerge when early abortions are made illegal. I will also help you see that at a certain stage of pregnancy, murder becomes apparent.

If Mr Divine Order ordered a plate of rice and beans at his local restaurant and this came, what do you think he would say? That is not a plate of rice and beans. Two grains of rice and two beans will not fill me up. That does not constitute a meal. The waiter will point out to him, Mr Divine Order, it is rice for sure and beans for sure. Ask any biologist, botanist and they will categorically tell you that those rice and beans have the exact genes for rice and beans. That is a rice and beans meal, scientifically proven. Fact.

Something needs to be enough of something to be something. These four items would not keep you alive if eaten as a daily meal. We would not have a thousand meals a day. There is a minimum level that provides the sustenance to survive.

The space shuttle Challenger exploded shortly after lift-off. The cause. A failure in a relatively small O-ring. A drop in the overnight temperature made the O-ring brittle. One part failing led to the death of the crew and the shuttle. One small difference between a successful space launch and a mighty explosion. Small progressions in embryo development dictate when an embryo becomes a baby. In theory the transformation from embryo to baby can occur over the course of an hour. One extra piece complete. The body big enough to produce viability.

The crowd roared. Every person in one half of the stadium began jumping up and down joyously. Hugging one another. Finally. After a long wait, years waiting, their team had done it. They had scored a goal to put themselves ahead in a most important revered competition, a competition that is only held once every four years. They were not alone. Several million people back home were also jubilant. Heros made. Honour received. Huge wealth from sponsorship will be forthcoming. But most of all, pride and respect. Alas, that jubilation is short lived. A minute passes as the video of the goal is checked. The ball must go over the line fully. All of the ball must go over all of the line. A small difference makes the world of difference. The adjudicators declare than 1 mm of the ball if not over the line. The score is level. The other team score shortly after and the team go home dejected. In football, in embryo development, a small difference changes everything.

Viability is this. If the baby can live, grow and prosper henceforth without the mother, it is viable. If someone, anyone, can feed, nurture and care for the child it is a viable entity. There is a point where the child no longer needs the mother in particular. It has grown sufficiently from an embryo to form a human-being.

It is incredible that in Japan, babies at 22 weeks are incubated and cared for successfully. Unlike other nations where the embryo fails at 28 weeks or more. Different nations have different resources and different skill sets. A line needs to be drawn. A line the demarcates an abortion from murder. A termination of pregnancy is evil if the child could survive with some care and attention. The main point is this. If a child is induced and no one bothers to try, it is manslaughter at best, murder at worst. You may not have the equipment nor know-how to do as well as others in different countries. However, you can try. Trying your best is good enough. Not trying is morally bankrupt. It doesn’t matter about the wishes of the mother and father in any situation that arises. What matter is the attempt to do your best to see if a child can emerge and live.

Divine Order proposes that if it is possible to incubate and nourish an embryo at 22 weeks then any nation that has an abortion limit below that level is sinful. The argument is odd. If I take myself and my partner and my child to a nation with lower health care standards than that of the nation I live in, then I am exposing them to undue jeopardy. If a health problem manifests itself whilst away and one of my family perish, I would be guilty of murder for I knew that a hospital in that country may not be able to save them in event of an accident or illness.

I doubt many cheer abortions; many will prefer they were never necessary. However, for reasons that are none of our business, abortions take place. It is our business if a child is killed. Viability is complex. It is much more likely after 24 weeks than weeks prior. Whatever your view on the morality of abortions, one can’t claim that a termination of pregnancy at 2, 3, 4 weeks is murder. It might be unjustifiable. It might be wrong in your world view. It is not a killing of a complete person. It is not murder. The rights and wrongs in regards abortions are always opinion. Opinions differ. Contraception is morally wrong say some. Morning after pills are abhorrent say others. There are a few that propose that abortion at 35 weeks is acceptable. Those that propose that the killing of a viable child simply because he/she is inside the mother are weak minded. That is my opinion of course, but it is backed by the notion that the child no longer needs the body it is inside.

My body – my choice. It is your body that the child it inside, but it is a new body that has been created. There are two people at 28 weeks+. Remove it by all means is you are so cruel and self-centred. Let someone else nourish it from that point on. The body inside of the woman is not their body. It is a new body that owns itself. In the same way as the mother is not still owned by her mother and father. Nobody owns anyone. They may be the carer or guardian but never the owner. My, is a relation. My brother, my sister, my aunt, my daughter. All are relationships not ownerships.

Some women feel that men have no place discussing things related to women’s bodies. It seems a fair point. However, murder is under discussion, so men will feel entitled to discuss life and death of others no matter where the person in question sits. When women get help from another woman to have a child, surrogacy, they have plenty to say. Many will instruct the woman carrying the surrogate child to watch what they eat. They will formulate an exercise plan for the lady to follow. The woman will tell the other woman many things that she should and should not do. When women are in the same position as men, they have plenty to say. A woman who scolds a man for discussing abortions is most likely to be an utter hypocrite more so if she calls on a lady to have a child for her. Women judge men in many ways, so maybe it is fair for men to join in with praise, compliments and criticisms.

Divine order believes sex outside marriage is a sin. That says a lot. That argument is a cheek and vile. Pushing your faith based morals on others is most unwelcome. Humans have been having sex with one another for tens of thousands of years before religions were invented, thousands of years prior to formalised unions.

Divine order has constructed a flimsy set of arguments and uses aggressive debating tricks to force his opinion on others. Thankfully, few are swayed. I suspect many would be more inclined to go ahead with an abortion after listening to him. The arguments may appear powerful, but they reek with banality. People know in their hearts that the arguments are flawed despite not ‘having the words’ to say why.

Campaign against abortions by all means but please stick to arguments that resemble the truth. Show balance and the downsides to what you propose. You may argue that removing an embryo from the womb is morally wrong, it will be morally wrong in some people’s opinion. However, an embryo is not a human being until circa 28 weeks, so no murder takes place.

Some women would end up in jail for aborting a foetus that would have miscarried anyway.

Conception is a private affair – until a child emerges inside the womb. You can judge, you can campaign, you can try and show people that you are a better person than they, but everything you say ought to be honest. A microscopic embryo, the size of a pin head, is a potential person - not a person yet.